I know I should ask my doc this too, but wanted to get your opinions on the matter. So I know we're not supposed to have runny yolks in our eggs and our red meat has to be cooked until it is DEAD. But what are the true risk factors? Is it because of how our food is processed these days?
I get my eggs and chickens from a local farm. They are fed 17% protein, kelp, diatomaeceous earth, and get no chemicals. The chickens are moved to a different area of the farm every day to forage. I know the farmer and see her every week at the farmer's market. I trust that her chickens are very healthy. Do you think over-medium eggs from such healthy chickens are harmful? I also get my beef from the farmer's market. It is grass-fed, free ranging, no chemicals added. And it is delicious!! (Especially the skirt steak. mmm) Just looking for your opinions here. Like I said, I completely trust my farmers. I know that their animals are healthy. I would never eat a burger mid-rare if I didn't know where the animal(s) comes from (i.e. supermarket ground beef). Do you think these local, naturally raised animals would be harmful to my baby's health?
Me: 29, DH: 35
EDD: 8-28-12
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I eat over medium eggs whenever I feel like it (not out at a restaurant though). I buy a mix of organic/free range grocery store eggs, and local eggs. There are nutrients in the yolk (can't remember which ones!) that are destroyed by cooking the yolk all the way. I also always wash eggs before I crack them (salmonela is on the shell, not in the egg). I will say that I crave scrambled eggs and omelets more now that I am pg, but I cook both on the 'soft' side.
I also eat our local, grass fed beef medium to medium rare at home. Out, I order steaks medium, and burgers medium well. It's my understanding that the concern with beef and eggs is salmonela (and other food-borne illness issues) which is not directly harmful to your baby, as opposed to listeria which is serious as it crosses the placenta. Yes, these concerns are greater with commercially raised beef and eggs because of the living conditions of the animals, etc.
I would encourage you to read Nina Planck's Real Food for Mother and Baby. She has a nice balanced, whole foods approach to eating during pregnancy, that leans towards the Weston Price beliefs, but not totally, and is different than the general info out there.
I would also say that, depending on your dr., your dr. would probably tell you to cook all meat and eggs thoroughly no matter what. This is the kind of question I personally wouldn't ask my dr., because I probably wouldn't listen.
I am a huge proponent of really listening to your body. If I feel like a med-rare steak, I eat it. If I feel like poached eggs, I eat them. If I feel like a cupcake, I try and resist
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We raise our own beef, and our own chickens for eggs. I don't think that I would have anything runny in my eggs, chickens are scavengers, I once saw mine eat a mouse. Also depends on where the protein is coming from in the feed for the chickens. I am assuming that she is feeding all natural commercial feed, if not, sometimes cheaper grade feed will actually grind up dead chickens or other animals into the feed to achieve those protein levels.
As far as steaks and those types of cuts that are not ground up (like hamburger), the bacteria can not penetrate the meat very far into it so as you grill it/sear it that bacteria is killed. Ground meat is different, and as it is processed, any bacteria on the outside of the meat is mixed into the meat. This also brings up a different matter, how good is the slaughterhouse that the producer uses, clean, sanitary..... We have 2 in our area, one is amazing, and the other I will never use again.
Yep, you said it right, they want us to cook our food until it's dead. That doesn't sound very nutritious for me or the baby. Personally, I feel the whole food risk thing is blown out of proportion. I eat my beef medium rare, eggs over easy, sushi at places I have a relationship with, any cheese I want, raw milk and cream. If we were so fragile a species, food born illness would have killed us off long ago. Eat what makes you happy, that's how I see it.
Doh! Just realized that recommended the Nina Planck book to you in your post about your MW . Sorry, I should have paid attention to who posted (can you tell I liked that book? )
Thanks for sharing your opinions! I know that all those guidelines are there for a reason, but sometimes it just seems a bit much. And if I want a steak and I know it's healthy, I want to enjoy it! Thanks again for the book reference missmagoo!
1healthylady: Just looking for your opinions here.
Just looking for your opinions here.
My opinion is that you should make an informed decision that you can live with, and that you shouldn't necessarily get your information on this topic from this board. I am saying that because I have read a lot of misinformation on here lately about food safety. For example, there was another thread where someone claimed you could eat deli meat safely in the third trimester. That is not true because listeria can cause a spontaneous miscarriage of a full term baby. Also, I could be misremembering from food safety class, but I'm pretty sure you are explicitly not supposed to wash egg shells.
Regarding the source of the food -- our local organic CSA put out a newsletter discussing how they had once given a group of school kids salmonella because they let them drink from the hose and it turned out there was salmonella in the hose. I know that's just one data point, but I guess my point is that local sources aren't necessarily immune to issues.
I see a lot of posts on here about people eating all kinds of stuff that they're not supposed to according to the medical recommendations. It's true that the risks are rare but the consequences are so potentially devastating, I think that's why those recommendations are in place. And I seem to recall pregnant women are more susceptible to foodborne illness than the general population (although I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm misremembering that, too; I will be the first to admit my memory is shot since giving birth).
I am totally guilty of coming on here and asking opinions on various medical stuff that I should obviously just ask my doctor about instead, so I totally know how that goes when you're just curious about people's opinions on stuff. So I don't mean this as a flame or anything like that -- and if other people want to eat stuff they're not supposed to because they're fine with the risk level, I'm fine with that. Personally I tend to be overly cautious about this kind of stuff while I'm pregnant.
Cupcake: I am saying that because I have read a lot of misinformation on here lately about food safety. For example, there was another thread where someone claimed you could eat deli meat safely in the third trimester. That is not true because listeria can cause a spontaneous miscarriage of a full term baby.
I am saying that because I have read a lot of misinformation on here lately about food safety. For example, there was another thread where someone claimed you could eat deli meat safely in the third trimester. That is not true because listeria can cause a spontaneous miscarriage of a full term baby.
I have to say, reading that chickens are scavengers and can eat mice is disturbing. I never knew that! I always thought the reason eggs were supposed to be fully cooked was because they could get contaminated by the chicken's poop (and that washing the shell would be good enough).
Me 37, DP 45My Chart
I had not heard that about eggs and I've been having an over-easy-over medium egg every morning for breakfast. I probably won't change that, though. While I generally like beef and order things medium-rare to rare, beef has been one of my random aversions, so I haven't been tempted, though I would probably get it medium instead. We get our pork from a local, free-range, happy animal farm and I cook it to 140 (new FDA recommendations that I had been doing already bc 165 was too much!)
I worked in the food industry for years and to me, as long as the food is cooked properly, it's as safe as any other food. So, a medium rare steak, cooked to the correct internal temperature, arguably is safe. Honestly, I'm much more concerned about getting sick from people not washing their hands in between every trip to the buffet. Or, the sous chef who has an uncovered bandaid on his hand who preps veggies for the salad. Staph and norovirus are common in restaurants and no matter how well cooked something is, if, the food handler touches the food with a contaminated hand, you're going to get sick.
I'm not a fan of lunchmeat generally, so I haven't been tempted by that, but if I trust its source, I'll eat it cold. For example, when we visited my ILs at 6 wks PG, my sweet MIL made me a turkey sandwich. I ate it because it had been in the refrigerator and she is a meticulous cook. I figure that if she didn't get sick from eating it the day before (and she's 65+), I wasn't going to get sick.
I watched this amazing documentary a month ago about trashpickers in the world's largest landfill in Brazil. I was amazed and inspired by the number of pregnant women working at the dump, eating food prepared from food waste found in the trash, minimal handwashing & other sanitation (some worked with no gloves!). Of course, I am not privy to the statistics there re: miscarriage, birth defects, etc, but I do know that there were a lot of babies and children running around. Where food is not as ample or most often prepared in home or by family, I doubt pregnant women's "avoid" list is much much shorter than ours. The only thing on my "avoid" list now is alcohol and really, I've only got another few weeks until that restriction is lifted.
I think that how we choose to nourish our bodies and our baby is a very personal decision and ultimately comes down to how comfortable you are with risk and potential harm (as goes pretty much every decision we have made already or will make with regards to our baby....)
Sarah (35)
Hot Fisherman Hubby+ 4 Dogs +1 Cat=Our Happy Family
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Cupcake: 1healthylady: Just looking for your opinions here. My opinion is that you should make an informed decision that you can live with, and that you shouldn't necessarily get your information on this topic from this board. I am saying that because I have read a lot of misinformation on here lately about food safety. For example, there was another thread where someone claimed you could eat deli meat safely in the third trimester. That is not true because listeria can cause a spontaneous miscarriage of a full term baby. Also, I could be misremembering from food safety class, but I'm pretty sure you are explicitly not supposed to wash egg shells. Regarding the source of the food -- our local organic CSA put out a newsletter discussing how they had once given a group of school kids salmonella because they let them drink from the hose and it turned out there was salmonella in the hose. I know that's just one data point, but I guess my point is that local sources aren't necessarily immune to issues. I see a lot of posts on here about people eating all kinds of stuff that they're not supposed to according to the medical recommendations. It's true that the risks are rare but the consequences are so potentially devastating, I think that's why those recommendations are in place. And I seem to recall pregnant women are more susceptible to foodborne illness than the general population (although I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm misremembering that, too; I will be the first to admit my memory is shot since giving birth). I am totally guilty of coming on here and asking opinions on various medical stuff that I should obviously just ask my doctor about instead, so I totally know how that goes when you're just curious about people's opinions on stuff. So I don't mean this as a flame or anything like that -- and if other people want to eat stuff they're not supposed to because they're fine with the risk level, I'm fine with that. Personally I tend to be overly cautious about this kind of stuff while I'm pregnant.
I totally agree that one always needs to check their sources on this kind of thing, but I like to think that most people come to the board to just get a feel for how others go about navigating some of these restrictions, not for hard core medical advice.
For example, the incidence of listeriosis is 2-3 cases per million population. That is obviously very rare. In 2011 there was an outbreak of 15 cases from cantaloupe. Cantaloupe. I don't know if any of them were pregnant, but obviously those folks would have fared better at Subway. This is to say that there is actually no way to guarantee your safety when it comes to food borne illness (or anything really) when you are pregnant (or when you are not.) There is always an element of judgment involved. Especially when it comes to bacteria that are naturally occurring in the environment. The best you can do is use reasonable precautions (heat the meat!) and hope for the best. Look both ways when you cross the street too, because that is more likely to get you than listeriosis!
I have found that is true for the medical profession as well. One OB says no swimming in public pools, the other says jump in a lake if you want, but no hair dye. Mine is terrified of chemicals and environmental toxins, and relatively relaxed about naturally occuring threats, like bacteria, the flu, etc. He's okay with lunch meat, but mercury-laced fish are a big no-no. My friend's is the complete opposite. It was very amusing when we were both pregnant at the same time -- her with the diet coke and highlights, me with the gray hair swimming laps. And this was doctors' orders!
Anyway, I digress. In my world, my burgers are cooked well done when pregnant, my steaks medium, based on the location of bacteria (ground meat = potentially everywhere, steaks, external). I prefer eggs over easy, but go scrambled when pregnant. Since the presence of specific bacteria aren't necessarily a result of how and where the meat was raised, I don't think it makes a difference if it is local or not.
However, after reading this thread, it might be a while before I can look at a piece of (mouse-eating) chicken again. [:'(]
Laura
(6), (4), (2), born May 16, 2012!
The shop is closed. Our perfect family is complete
Laura, I was writing a similar post, but my internet went out and I lost it. Nonetheless, I agree with you 100%.
Just to update the stats on the listeria outbreak from cantaloupe last year - well over a hundred were sickened and the last number I saw was 29 dead. There was one miscarriage attributed and another baby was born premature because of it (I believe at 30 weeks). That baby had actually contracted it and was very sick. When I read about it, they weren't sure if there would be long-term effects on the baby or not.
Another thing about listeria is that it can take up to two months after exposure to get sick, so because someone ate something the day before and did not get sick does not mean it was not contaminated.
Most food borne illnesses do not pass through the placenta, but listeria is one that could. It's rare, so the chances of eating contaminated food are very low, but for me personally, I stay away from cold deli meats. I'm not that big on most deli meat so it's not hard for me. But as the PP said no one would have anticipated it would be cantaloupe that would cause a listeria outbreak, so at some point you have to just put it out of your mind and just try to do what's comfortable to you.
Jill
Jill-40 and Daron-46
Adan - 6, Maya - 2, Zachary - just arrived 3/26/12
TTC'd #1 for 4 years before adopting DS#1 - "God bless the broken road that led me straight to you"
After natural hormone therapies and change to more organic foods/products - 2 m\c, then DD#1 and DS#2
For me, I don't change a lot of my eating habits while pregnant... But that is just me... I only stay away from some things that are unpasteurized and maybe try to cut my lunchmeat consumption a little (though I'm not a big eater). Well that and I cut my alcohol to nothing for the first half of pregnancy and only the occasional half a drink there-after.
Susan - 30 married to Chris - 32
Catherine Anne born via c-section June 30, 2008
Rebecca Marie born naturally April 18, 2010
John McNary born naturally January 9, 2012
Hi.
I think this is a very interesting topic. I wanted to chime in here with my opinion about eating under cooked eggs, meat and cheese.
I am a dairy farmer and we raise about 200 dairy animals for cheese making, we also have beef cows and chickens. I fully support eating real food, meaning food that is grown the way nature intended. I think reading Nina Planck, Real Food for Mothers and Baby is a great way to start learning about how to eat real food. I firmly believe we should eat locally from farmers we know. It will ensure you that the food you are getting is safe and clean. However, some of these bacteria’s and parasites those doctors warn about can exist even in the most clean, healthy and animal welfare farms. Take for instance the example with runny eggs. Of course no one would eat an egg that was cracked, I wouldn’t even from my own chickens. A cracked egg would could pass along with it salmonella, which as stated by PP is unlikely to pass through the placenta. But I wouldn’t want to suffer from salmonella, e-coli or other pathogens while pregnant. It’s a good idea to wash your eggs, especially if you buy them from the grocery store before you crack them and eat them. I personally don’t think a runny egg, cooked at home, is much of a risk for getting sick. When I eat out, I order eggs well done.
But for the meat issue, it is true that all meat is potential at risk for getting salmonella or e-coli on the surface of the meat. All livestock contain these pathogens in their guts. It all depends on how clean your processors are with not contaminating the meat at the time of butchering. This is always hard to determine, so I play it safe, even with meat I raise myself. But the main concern for me when eating rare meat while pregnant isn’t the pathogens that I mentioned before, but it’s the risk of getting toxoplasmosis. We all know that we are not supposed to clean kitty litter while we are pregnant because of the risk of the parasite that causes toxoplasmosis, but few women realize that livestock are host to the parasite that causes toxoplasmosis. The parasite is passed to the livestock by barn cats, especially kittens. These barn cats live in the barn that stores the hay that the livestock eat. The cats use the hay as their kitty litter and when the livestock eat the hay that contains the cat waste they ingest the parasite. The parasite is passed along to humans through their meat. So when you eat rare or undercooked meat, there is a chance that you might be eating the parasite that causes toxoplasmosis. Because, I buy in all my own hay, I do not eat rare meat while pregnant, even if it is my own. The risk is great enough for me that I don’t want to take the chance. Cooking only the outside of the meat will not kill the parasite deep inside the muscle.
As far as eating cheeses or other dairy products for the fear of contracting listeria from soft cheeses, I don’t believe we are at much risk. Again, this all depends on how clean the cheese plant is that is making the cheese. The FDA has such strict regulations that unless the cheese plant is completely in denial about these regulations (and they won’t be in business long) than it is safe to assume that they are clean. However, the problem with listeria isn’t really about how or where the cheese is made, but how it was cared for after the cheese ships from the cheese plant. Listeria in an environmental pathogen that exists everywhere, including, potentially in your fridge. I don’t believe that cheese is any more likely to develops listeria than milk or yogurt or any other dairy product. For me, the most likely reason that Dr.’s warn about cheese that I can come up with is that most of the time, cheese sits in our refrigerators longer than other dairy products, so has a longer time to potentially contract the pathogen. The reason why Dr’s warm about soft cheese in particular is that the softer the dairy product the better the chance for the pathogen to survive one the surface. Harder cheeses do not have any “food” to carry the pathogen for long, and pasteurized cheeses tend to kill all potential pathogens. But like I said, listeria doesn’t always have to be contracted at the time of the cheese make, but more likely at the cheese counter or even in your home.
Again, I believe that we all need to do what we believe is right for our own families. When not pregnant I fully enjoy rare meat. But for me, developing toxoplasmosis is too risky for the short time I am pregnant. There are few other foods that I avoid, and after my baby is born I will expose him/her to a wealth of real foods and not worry about “allergens” or illnesses or any other things Dr.’s warm about. For the most part, I believe that as Americans, we are way to clean for our own good. Developing resistance to these bacteria’s and pathogens are far better than keeping your environment germ free.
Me 34 - DP 42 5 furry babies
ttc since Jan 2010
7 IUI's some natural some medicated = BFN
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Thanks so much for that breakdown, mamajmamag. All that information is really helpful in making an informed decision about what to eat. I didn't realize that toxoplasmosis was the concern with eating rare beef when pregnant- totally makes sense. I just looked up some info on it though and it looks like the bacteria is killed by 24 hours in a home freezer, or by cooking to an internal temp of 152F (about med well). I agree that toxoplasmosis is serious stuff though.
I do wonder where this leaves pasture raised beef. We get ours from a rancher, and the cows are only ever outside roaming.
Yes, thank you mamajmamag! So much good information. I agree that this is a personal choice and everyone has a different comfort level for risk (isn't this true with the rest of our lives too? Some people prefer to take walks around the neighborhood, some hike in the woods, some take a machete into the swamp). It's hard to find real information about why the foods are risky, especially when looking beyond commercially raised and processed foods since the majority of the population eats commercially. Even when not pregnant I eat differently outside the home than when cooking my own food. Many people think I'm vegetarian because of it. I just like to know where my food comes from. I had no idea that toxoplasmosis was a risk with livestock. I figured since I don't have cats, that was one risk I didn't have to worry about. I will need to contact our water buffalo farmer and find out their barn cat situation. I don't think the buffalo are ever in a barn, but I would like to be sure.
Thanks for a lively discussion about food! It's nice to see what others' opinions are. I keep being told by friends that I'm reading too much and back in the day people didn't have all these 'rules,' yadayadayada. I'm just trying to educate myself and know what I may or may not be subjecting myself and my baby to before taking any risks.
@ missmagoo - Yes, most of the parasite is killed by the freezer, but not all. It's true that toxoplasmosis is rare, but it's very serious. I don't know where you are from, so it's hard to say about how your rancher grass farms. We raise 100% grass-fed sheep and cows. We graze our animals year round, however, it takes a long time to fully develop a pasture that can support year-round grazing. I've been doing it for 10 years and live in a climate that has amazing grazing grasses, however, a growing/lactating/pregnant animal needs a lot of nutrition and there are times when the grasses are dormant and because we do not have good stockpiled grasses, we do have to supplement with hay. Unless your rancher manages his/her grazing rotation and has improved pastureland with good winter stockpile, it's likely that he/she has to feed hay. This does not mean the animal isn't grass-fed, hay is just dried grass, and in normal cases, I wouldn't ever think twice about your rancher. I’m sure he has wonderful meat, but if he feeds hay at all, then there is a chance, albeit small, but it’s there. Like I said, I don’t even eat my own meat rare while pregnant because of this small but serious risk.
1healthylady- Thanks for getting the conversation started. I think most people don’t even think about what they put in their months even when pregnant. Because you are even thinking about it shows that you are concerned with the way our food culture has developed. I’m all for eating raw whole foods, but I also do take precautions while pregnant.
I just saw that Taco Bell was linked to the big salmonella outbreak last year. Presumably it was cooked meat, pasteurized cheese, and egg free.
Yeah, I would kind of assume there is some hay in the diet. We're in California, but in the desert mountains. Thanks again for the info.
CardinalZin:I'm not a fan of lunchmeat generally, so I haven't been tempted by that, but if I trust its source, I'll eat it cold. For example, when we visited my ILs at 6 wks PG, my sweet MIL made me a turkey sandwich. I ate it because it had been in the refrigerator and she is a meticulous cook. I figure that if she didn't get sick from eating it the day before (and she's 65+), I wasn't going to get sick.
Not to nit pick, but this isn't exactly true. Listeria is not like most food born illness. It is not a gastrointestinal illness like many people I have noticed here believe. It actually causes more flu type symptoms like high fever, body aches, etc. Also it doesn't happen over night. It takes on average 40-72 days to incubate before you are effected by it, so it is not an overnight food poisoning thing. Also many times our bodies can combat it fairly easily except that is not the case when we are pregnant. We are far more likely to catch it. If you do contract it, it is possible to save the baby but unfortunately not very likely. (I can be a hypo so when I was pregnant I did mass research and this is what I found)
Lauren (Me): 25 Joel (DH): 27
Married September 13, 2009
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Gideon Mark July 1, 2011