I've been doing some reading and there seems to be a difference of opinion or in the studies on this ..
What are your thoughts on pre-cum? If we are to trust WD at all, wouldn't we have to believe there is no sperm in it or so little that it couldn't make you pregnant?
Yes and you'd also have to believe that your guy has perfect control, that meds don't effect release or control and being able to tell, age doesn't effect control and that valves don't wear out or have defects.
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I never understood when advocates of wd cite studies saying there is only a small amount of sperm in pre-cum. Isn't any sperm too much of a risk? I also can never figure out how ladies know that their men have good control.
Can't answer for precum, but as for how do you know if your partner has good control...I asked Knowing he doesn't want a baby at this moment anymore than I do an the fact that I trust him is all I needed...maybe for others that isn't enough.
I guess for precum...several ladies on here use WD exclusively and successfully (myself included)...so it must not have any?! Just based on observation...no studies.
DH - 31 Me - 28
Happily married since 2008
Mirena IUD removed 11/30/11
TTA for another couple of years
Men DON'T have sperm in their pre-cum naturaly unless a man has a problem with his penis or is taking a med that could cause it to have a problem ( rare). They don't have any sperm in their pre-cum... just the ejaculate. For guys that know how to "pull out" in time... they pull-out WAY before the time, about a minute or more, and will switch to using their hand or your hand till the very end. All I use is WD during my fertile times, and we are very responsible and good at it. We will not be TTC till April of 2013. As you can tell I back this method and don't feel that it is a more irresponsible choice or lazy alternative to any other birth control out there.
Removed IUC after 3 years, successfully using FAM since Nov 2011
DB 35 Me 27
Also... I would not be using this method if I thought there was evidence to a small amount of sperm in pre-cum. That would be irresponsible and rediculous.
Bryanna, I meant no disrespect to those who decide that wd is the right decision for them. I have found conflicting scientific studies on sperm in pre-ejaculate (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21155689) and am personally erring on the side of caution. If I'm ever at a point where I am less adamantly tta I may change my mind on wd. It's always up to the individual/couple to find their comfort level.
I have read this abstract before:
This study was designed to establish whether motile spermatozoa are released with pre-ejaculatory fluid and whether this fluid therefore poses a risk for unintended pregnancy. Forty samples of pre-ejaculatory fluid were examined from 27 volunteer men. Samples were obtained by masturbation and by touching the end of the penis with a Petri dish prior to ejaculation. Eleven of the 27 subjects (41%) produced pre-ejaculatory samples that contained spermatozoa and in 10 of these cases (37%), a reasonable proportion of the sperm was motile. The volunteers produced on up to five separate occasions and sperms were found in either all or none of their pre-ejaculatory samples. Hence, condoms should continue to be used from the first moment of genital contact, although it may be that some men, less likely to leak spermatozoa in their pre-ejaculatory fluid, are able to practice coitus interruptus more successfully than others.
So this means that 41% of the men had sperm in their pre-cum (mostly dead sperm, probably left over from the last time they were masturbating)... and 5 of the 40 men had a small amount of sperm that was still alive. Then the conclusion to this study is that men that are good at the practice of coitus interruptus (with drawl method) are less likely to leak sperm in the first place. One thing I have learned in school when looking at a small scientific study as this is to determine how cedible the study is. For one... the study does not talk about if this spermatozoa leak into pre-cum is because of valve probems or if it because they rubbed one out earlier that morning (knowing men... this is pretty likely). And how can they come up with the conclusion that guys that are better at pulling out in time are the ones who don't leak the sperm? That conclusion doesn't point to a valve problem at all but just an awareness of timeing problem. I mean... did they sit there and watch the guy when he was giving a sample? All of these are just hypotheses. So to me... correct me if I am wrong.. but this study says that 5 out of 40 men leaked live sperm because they didn't pull out in time.
You're right that they didn't evaluate the men for valve related issues. Most men will never know if they have this defect. When it comes to my family planning, I am always going to assume that my man may be one of the up to 37% with motile sperm in preejaculate. Again, I totally respect the choices that you and your partner make. It just isn't the right one for me.
bryannalouise:So this means that 41% of the men had sperm in their pre-cum (mostly dead sperm, probably left over from the last time they were masturbating)...
bryannalouise:Eleven of the 27 subjects (41%) produced pre-ejaculatory samples that contained spermatozoa and in 10 of these cases (37%), a reasonable proportion of the sperm was motile.
Eleven of 27 = 41% with sperm. 10 of those eleven had MOTILE (live) sperm. That is 91% with live sperm in their samples. Those that did have sperm in their samples had sperm in repeated samples and those that did not have sperm also did not on repeated samples. I take this to mean some men will and some men won't. Unless I had tests showing mine didn't I wouldn't take the chance. Instead I have tests showing mine does but even then it was never something I trusted. It is an individual decision. It can work but like all methods it does have a failure rate and we each have to choose our own comfort zone. Knowing whether or not our men did or didn't would help but I can't imagine it would be a test men would want to subject themselves to and there would still be no guarantee for how long those test results could be valid as change in meds, age lifestyle could change the results over time. If you trust it use it. I know several with babies using WD as their chosen method, some of them have grappled with whether they can trust their partner over his adamant insistence that he didn't come. The bottom line is if he didn't then there were sperm present and on that occassion one of them did the job intended. For them WD as a BC method is no longer an option and they are still grappling with trust issues for others it was the end of their relationship and (lack of) trust played a part of the decision.
bryannalouise:So to me... correct me if I am wrong.. but this study says that 5 out of 40 men leaked live sperm because they didn't pull out in time.
You can read it that way if you like. It says nothing about 5 out of 40 men though. It states that 27 volunteers participated on up to five separate occassions each. I think the 40 cames from the actual number of those (up to) 135 dishes that had a valid sample (liquid present vs no liquid or what they detern=mined to be ejaculate and not precum). They can test the fluid to determine it's origin and any sample that contains anything other than fluid from the cowper's gland or what is found with sperm is rejected. Pre ejaculate contains mucous and galatose. Semen will contain fluid from the prostate (different acids, enzymes and zinc) and seminal vesicles ( amino acids, citrate, enzymes, flavins and fructose) along with sperm from the testes. The cowpers gland starts to release fluid upon arousal and the amt can vary from next to none in some or quite a bit in others. Amt of release can also depend on how much time between arousal periods.
Oooops. Ya you are right. Crap... cant use WD anymore!! Dang I was really loving that method. I wonder where Planned Parent gets their percentages from. They say that it is something like 95% safe.